Former U.S. Labor Secretary Alexis Herman sat down with blackenterprise.com editor Latif Lewis to discuss some of the challenges women face in corporate America. Here’s what she had to say about the glass ceiling, pay disparities between men and women, and moving up the corporate ladder.
BLACK ENTERPRISE: Can you recall any experiences where you felt discriminated against because you are a woman?
ALEXIS HERMAN: I think, obviously growing up in the Deep South, I ran into discrimination quite a bit. It was a part of life. But I think the first incident that really stayed with me was right after I left college, really going on my first job pursuit. I went on job interview after job interview in my hometown of Mobile, [Alabama,] and I was turned down repeatedly. When you talk about the sexism aspect of it–and I often told this story when I was Labor Secretary–there was this one bank executive in Mobile [who said,] “I really would like to hire you. We’re starting to give women jobs in this bank. Maybe I can hire you as a teller,” he said. “And the other really good job for a woman here is a secretary. If you’re lucky, maybe I can bring you in as a secretary.” But the only jobs they were hiring women for in the bank were tellers and secretaries.
Well, I did not go to college, first of all, to try to land a job as a secretary. And secondly, I was crushed that he was even saying to me [that] perhaps if I was a white woman he might be able to get me in. But I couldn’t even get that because I was a black woman.
B.E.: There was a study conducted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics that came out [in 2002] called The Labor Force Experience of Women From Generation X. It says that women are still making up a large percentage of traditional so-called women’s occupations [i.e., teachers, legal assistants, etc.]. Do you think this trend will continue?
HERMAN: I think it’s going to change in the future by virtue of the pipeline. I think it’s going to be something that the market itself is going to alter because this economy, in order to grow for the future, is going to need the best talent it can find wherever it is. And that talent happens to be, for the future, women minorities because that’s where the pipeline is.
B.E.: In many boardrooms in corporate America, the senior managers are usually white males. Why do you think it’s so difficult for women to climb the corporate ladder, even if they’ve actually already secured a position within a company?
HERMAN: I think there are several factors. You have to remember that both formal and informal cultures drive hiring decisions. In the informal networks, because women have not been there, we don’t have the role models and the champions who are promoting and fostering other women in greater numbers. Now, luckily, you’ve got more enlightened males in the corporate sector who recognize that we have to do a better job of getting women into senior-level jobs in corporations.
It goes back to what I was telling you. We’re talking about, right now, 50% of all new hires are women. When you put together women and people of color, it’s 85% of all new hires. Put together immigrants with people of color and women and it’s 85% of the workplace today in terms of who’s taking the jobs for the future. It’s who’s going to school, who we are educating. Our destiny is really [based] on demographics.
B.E.: Is there anything that can be done better in the workforce to ensure that women have the same opportunities [as men]?
HERMAN: Well, all of the data says that for women in general–and African American women in particular–having someone who is mentoring and sponsoring you in the organization is the single most critical factor determining long-term success in a company today.
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B.E.: Now, also, as more women have entered the workforce, it seems that the ratio between what the average woman earns and what the average man earns has narrowed. What can you attribute that to?
HERMAN: I attribute that, again, to more women coming into the workplace today [and] helping to balance out the many women–or the majority of women quite frankly–who are still concentrated in low-wage, limited-opportunity jobs.
So to some extent you have some balancing out of those numbers because of what’s happening with the new entrants, and finally you see some women starting to move up into senior management.
B.E.: Do you think women are doing something wrong? Do you think that oftentimes we don’t know what we’re worth and may be scared to negotiate?
HERMAN: I think it’s a phenomenon like other things we as women have experienced. Women are still at a disadvantage because we still don’t have enough role models, champions in senior positions, who can pull other women in to be the coaches and the guides who say, “Let me
Hopefully your generation, and to a limited extent my generation, [has that kind of experience]. But ours was a breakthrough generation. So a part of this is who are we talking to? We’re not talking to individuals who have had the exposure and experience to be able to pass it on.
B.E.: Is there any advice you can offer African American women, specifically, about succeeding in the workforce and moving up the corporate ladder?
HERMAN: First of all, you have to be very clear about the organizational contribution that you’re making and what support you need to get the job done–and ask for that support.
Secondly, I think this notion of having a mentor or sponsor, someone who can support and coach you within the organization, is critical, particularly in corporate America.
And the third thing that I think is important for blacks is that we be engaged and active. We have to find ways to fill ourselves with courage and spirit so that we don’t become discouraged on the job. You’ve got to have more [than work] going on in your life for balance, so you can refuel, re-energize, and continue to push on.